On this special episode of CITV, Dr. Leonard Faye and Prof. Frederick (Ted) Carrick discuss the evolution of spinal manipulation and Dr. Leonard Faye’s contribution to the profession. Dr. Faye and Prof. Carrick have been close friends for 45 years and their conversations are uniquely personal as they embrace the profession.
Dr. Leonard Faye was the creator of the original Motion Palpation (MPI) Seminars, compiling the core information included in the text book entitled, “Motion Palpation and Chiropractic Technique” by Schafer & Faye. He has presented clinical programs of instruction internationally over a 50 + year career and still maintains an active clinical practice in Los Angeles, California. Dr Faye has treated a host of patients from Olympians to the person next door as he spearheaded a paradigm shift from a static vertebral subluxation model to a dynamic, heuristic, subluxation-complex model. Dr. Faye’s clinical practice and engaging presentations have included a pioneering hands on simulation into the clinical fabric of health care. Perhaps, more than anyone, he has lived the life of a change agent that has gifted clinicians of all disciplines with a determination to attain excellence in practice and service to humankind.
There are some technical difficulties with the conversation video but the wealth of the sharing makes this episode a most worthwhile and enjoyable experience.
Want to listen to the audio only? This interview is also available on our Talk Neuro to Me Podcast. You can listen to this episode on iTunes, Spotify or Google Play, or click the link below:
#carricktrained #carrickinstitute #mpi #motionpalpation
Dr. Carrick- Hello my dear friend. I’m speaking to Dr. Len Faye and he’s in California and I’m at The Carrick Institute in Cape Canaveral today. My gosh, I’ve known you for 45 years. Dr. Faye – Yes. Dr. Carrick – Just a blink, just a blink. So we’ve talked often times just about our careers and about the careers of other people. but more especially about health care in general and the chiropractic profession and other professions that use manipulation as a primary modality of treatment. Well, you’ve certainly seen a lot of it and I think you’re sometimes a little bit too modest so people should realize what you have done not only for the chiropractic profession but I think the the aspect of health care and manipulative sciences, if you would introduction and forming of motion palpation learning aspects and global inferences and really changing a paradigm of treatment especially for chiropractors and for other people. So let’s just do a little flashback and then we’ll move up to the present but give me a little bit of a window of where you were. You know, you can start about you know with England and Canada and SMCC. But really what I’d like you to talk about is how you were able to take the things that you were doing in your day to day practice helping people and then transforming that into a pedagogical model an educational model that really revolutionized the practice of chiropractic and introduce manipulations. Like people largely had not seen throughout the world when you came on that stage. Dr. Faye – Right. Dr. Carrick- So give me an idea of what you know, what was going through Len Faye’s head when you had the impetus or what was the impetus to start teaching this motion palpation and the type of manipulations adjustments that you had found to be successful in your personal practice and what? Dr. Faye- Well, my driving force comes from the fact that I had rheumatic fever and didn’t do very well for three months and then a chiropractor came and did a house call and from that adjustment on I made a recovery from 95 pounds back to my 157 good athlete. so, I determined at that point that I would become a chiropractor I went to CMCC, I spent four years listening to all kinds of nonsense and graduated knowing that nobody knew how I got better. And I thought to myself, It can’t be a religious concept that are above down the universal intelligence got turned on and ran around my body and put everything right. And so, I said to myself, I’ve gotta do a self-study and I’ve got to find out what happened. I read Selye in 1961 and Selye was explaining how the sympathetic nervous system when it got facilitated could actually cause all kinds of diseases. And as you know, he wrote 500 and somewhat page textbook that I then went and got and it took me a year to read it and I had this brief study chemistry, et cetera, just to understand what the heck they were doing. When I got finished with that text, I thought to myself, “We must be influencing the sympathetic nervous system.” And then I moved to Europe and I went to a conference in Belgium in 62 Ellie showed motion X-ray studies of dysfunction, joints that weren’t moving properly. He did his manipulate procedures, he did his rehab procedures and the patients got better and then he re-motions studied them and put all this phenomenal smooth movement and then I thought, “Oh my God, that’s what we have to do.” And the next day, Jelle spent the whole day teaching how to do motion palpation to feel what Ellie had shown. Two of us showed up out of 300. Ray Broom and myself. Ray Broom eventually wrote a textbook on manipulation and I have too and we learned the basics and we both were in practice. so we went back to England and we started palpating our patients to figure out– And you know, it only took a few visits to find out you made the wrong mistake and the wrong decision but eventually, it got to the right decisions and then patients started making dramatic responses and I thought, “Oh my God, now I kind of know what I’m doing.” I just got to figure out where the science to this. And that led me to Korr, the osteopathic researcher who was studying facilitation due to spinal dysfunction. And I thought, “Wow, here we go where we got a path.” I came across Saito who was showing the affrontation of a manipulation back to the brain. The thing, the puzzle of the pieces all started coming. And then I was asked to form a committee or be part of a committee to create the curriculum for AESDC Ray Broom, myself, and Jim Skinner who was a classmate of mine when I was in England. We put together a curriculum where we denounced subluxation as a religious concept to the way it was being presented with this universal intelligence innate, intelligence, et cetera. I put together five things that we were doing. We were doing manipulation based on biomechanical principles that were neural biological mechanisms to manipulation. We were treating inflammation, there were soft tissue conditions involved and then according the Selye, is stress pathophysiology could actually hinder how you’re responded to any therapy. So it really became a biopsychosocial model in 1963. It wasn’t called that but that’s what we were dealing with these components. And so we put together a curriculum that taught the students what they needed to know about biomechanics, inflammation, manipulation based on the biomechanical principles of adjusting around the three axes, the orthogonal axes in a positive and negative state of direction. So the joint didn’t even go– didn’t just flow P to A when it came back to neutral, it then went from A to P and it could be restricted in both or one of those directions and all three of the orthogonal axes. So one crack wasn’t gonna do it. You had to adjust some motion units in more than one direction and sometimes, in the old philosophy, putting it in and then taking it out again Whereas, P to A began and A to P. You were doing the opposite on the same side and so this created havoc. I mean, the chiropractic colleges had a fit when I started lecturing in the USA about this whole concept denying subluxation as it was described originally. In my opinion, D.D. Palmer who we had to turn it into a religious concept so that when he got in court no M.D could say, that’s practicing medicine without a license. What they would say, “He’s interfering with God’s expression in our body.” I mean, it’s just not gonna happen. And I believe that’s what– And I’ve heard that he actually said chiropractic was a religion. so I don’t know. But anyways, I was held bent on starting it, giving it some kind of framework that a researcher who understood the physiology, the neurology like you’ve done with the neurology. I mean, it’s just phenomenal. To me, the paradigm that I opened up let people investigate with a scientific approach. Dr. Carrick- You were doing this– Well, it’s over 50 years ago and both sort of terms or thoughts are radical today but over 50 years ago, they were like, you know, what do you say? And so many of your– of the people that admire you come from both sort of camps. You’ve got people that embrace a concept of subluxation differently than they were taught in school, some people that don’t embrace it. At the very bottom of it is, I think you know, when I reflect back over our 45 years you actually did something with it. So at the end of the day, there was an adjustment or that the knowledge and the diagnostics, the palpation were somehow brought together with the result of, I’m gonna do this to find something and then I can do something with it rather than just you know, quantifying for quantifying. And the adjustments, that’s what really just turned people’s heads and made this really a vibrant type of a science. Many people can palpate, but when you can palpate and then you can do an adjustment and then you can re-palpate, it’s like, make the observation, make the intervention, make another observation and go. So you know what I’m talking about when you see people’s eyes open like bigger than big when they hear an adjustment the sound that comes from a joint that’s being adjusted properly. Can you give me a little bit of a turn because when you came back over and coming into North America and showing people these things, it was novel, it was radical, it was disruptive but there was something beautiful about it that when people put the palpation and adjustments to the test they were getting better results with their patients. So what was that like to change people’s technique or change people’s practices? Dr. Faye- Well it was very exciting because you know, I spent a year at CMCC there was Adrian Grace who was teaching how to palpate motion and I was teaching how to palpate the restricted motion. The fact you couldn’t feel motion. And so, feeling motion that’s a millimeter or two or three is very hard to do. And the students were very confused and so I came along and said, “Well it’s not that complicated because you can feel it, it should go from P to A and it’s blocked like pushing on a wall.” That’s what we’re dealing with. It’s not when to find, do they move normally? We’re trying to find if they don’t move. And then, once I showed them that and then the students started to pick up on it and then they realized adjusting became specific into the direction of those restrictions not line of drive then the line of drive theory was out for them and they stopped thinking they were adjusting a bone with the line of drive they realized they were adjusting the joints injured direction of restriction and then they found out, they had to go in many directions in a motion unit and then the result started to happen immediately. And so they got very excited and it was because of their excitement that when I was asked to go to LACC for approval up their license I met an old classmate of mine practicing in Los Angeles who had an agent. And when I explained to what I was doing, he said, “Oh, you got to meet my agent and we got to get you on the road teaching this in America because nobody is doing this.” And so that’s how MPI started and I basically took the curriculum from a AECC that I had developed over four years of teaching manipulation, palpation and the philosophy of a drug list practitioner not chiropractic philosophy which I called a fool-osophy, and that’s what happened. We started an MPI thing and about 30 chiropractors showed up and they got very excited and within a couple of months, they were much busier. And so, the agent said to me, “We got to get the place” and that’s how MPI started, it was because– really looking for what they were doing was really they Once you understand what you’re doing and then you know how it took them many years and came five or six seminars and it took them a year or two to catch up with the literature, cat get the skills into their hands in the meantime, we’re getting busier and busier and busier. To this day, I get invited. I mean, I just stayed with a chiropractor in Pittsburgh, a beautiful home where everything wined and dined Bernadette and I for three days just incredible. Dr.Carrick- And you know it’s really interesting and just you know, the philosophy and everything aside because you’ve got people that are you know, from a very vitalistic camp that do your work and love it. You got people that are in a different camp. And there has been a unity with the things that you have done regardless of your opinion of it or my opinion of it or whatever. The end result is is that if you’re going to manipulate joint this is a darn good technique that has just phenomenal sort of consequences. I’d like you just to reflect a little bit when we look at chiropractic education and you came in and all of a sudden literally with and without exaggeration every chiropractor on the planet was getting the MPI weekly newspapers and Dan Peterson, the dad was you now had that thing just going around. So everyone was talking about MPI, the instructors at schools were starting to teach it. Yet, when you came into an area where we’re invited to give a lecture and come on campus sometimes it didn’t seem that you were welcomed by the administration. I just like you to talk a little bit about what that was like what it felt like and the reality of that history? Dr. Faye – Well I couldn’t understand it to be perfectly honest how they could call themselves colleges and then they were banning me from speaking at the chiropractic colleges, most of them. I thought, “Well, what’s going on here? I have literature support to what I’m talking about, biomechanics I was recommending.” I mean, they weren’t even teaching biomechanics in those days. How ridiculous can you get? I thought to myself, “Well, this is amazing.” I mean, it must be the gurus are paying them or something’s going on that they don’t want the students to really know what the hell’s going on. And so, I was going there with sword drawn and I was ready to cut up and do whatever I had to do. And it was very funny because Palmer sent one of their instructors who is head of the department he sat there and listened to his phone with ear plugs for the whole day and a half. So when I got finished, like I said, there’s one thing I haven’t taught yet and that’s the adjustment of the coccyx with an internal contact and doctor, I won’t say his name. Is your technique instructor so he can show you that on Monday You know, the plug came out and everybody was laughing and he wondered what the hell was going on. But you know, that’s kind of how I was in those days. I mean, I really couldn’t understand it. And I felt that chiropractors were not as busy as they should be unless they were super salesmen because they really didn’t know how to predict what was gonna happen. they didn’t understand SAID, the Specific Adaptation to an Imposed Demand that requires serial adjusting. They were doing serial adjusting because of sales pictures and they didn’t really know how to adjust so that they were just repeating the same adjustments over and over instead of taking the patients through a progression to getting better. That’s the whole thing. Dr. Carrick – Through your journey, you’re still on the day to day practice of chiropractic and you still are attracting people from around the globe to come and see you, down now in Sunny, California but it can be anywhere, Indonesia, you know how to do things for humankind. There’s a question, of course, that many people have because the types of manipulations or adjustments that you do are very dynamic. They’re associated with a loud crack. They’re associated with an instantaneous change in the person many times for the better most of the times and they are startling. And people have the question, “My God. How long is it gonna take me to learn to do that or can I ever do that?” Or you know, I’m just a little person. Is this for big people technique or I’m a big person. Is this for a little people technique? How do you answer that? How would you suggest that a chiropractor be trained to learn how to give the type of adjustments, these high velocity, low amplitude, specific adjustments in multi-plains. How can you teach them how to do it? How long is it gonna take them to do it? Can people with different body types learn how to do the adjustment to be competent? What’s your take on that? Dr. Faye – Well there’s really good news in this field. CMCC a doctor, Starmer has developed a mannequin that can measure the pretension and then it can record the spike of the impulses thrust. And I was recorded that a little faster than 250 milliseconds spike with a 25 to 30 pound pre pressure. They’ve mimicked that and now the student can work away and it has nothing to do with strength. If you can spit, you can impulse because it’s the same hits exactly the same, Puh, right. So what they’re doing now is what I did way back in 67 when we opened AECC I first of all, taught the thrust and it’s not a push, it’s not a fast push. It’s a very, pulse, right. It’s impulse. And it only goes a few millimeters which is what we’ve recorded is the gapping that causes the crack. Now, we’re not exactly sure we thought we knew what the crack was but now they’re thinking, it’s breaking the section in the joint and we’re back to not knowing exactly what it is. It definitely occurs when the joint gaps we know that for sure. According to Saito when he did this work many years ago and Brian Birdshelves who’s a researcher in the field of the sympathetic and the autonomics for chiropractic. He’s a chiropractic PhD. Saito showed that when that crack occurs there is a way bigger affrontation back to the brain than when you just do a mobilizing stretch. They’re definitely therapeutically different. And now with brain mapping that can be shown. You can see that spike coming huge back into the brain. And so, my observations in clinic were that if I got an audible release like that I got a better result than if I just did mobilizing. But quite often, I can only mobilized for the first three or four visits before I can actually get an audible release. So it’s not– not therapeutic to be mobilizing but the better therapy is to getting that audible release. So you just have to– in my videos, I show how to train yourself to do the impulse without the mannequin. Now, 40% of the colleges have that mannequin now they’re actually training students how to do an impulse thrust so there’s good news. Dr. Carrick- There it is great news. And I think you know, simulation is is a big part of health care. I know I spent a good part of my life in the same lab up at Harvard and we simulate everything. If you can think of it, we can simulate it. so it’s good. You were evidence-based before evidence-based is/was a catch term. Now evidence-base is almost like complaining about Mrs. Brown having her eyes open in church and you wonder what the evidence is or who caught with her eyes open? The evidence again in your life is much more than randomized controlled trials. that has to do with the science, what we know, what we don’t know but also, what you see with your patients. And you, you know, you started out, you shared the story of your own exposure to chiropractic in different concepts. Some people that had rheumatoid, atrophies to a variety of things. And what would you say, if you could chronicle your life experience with patients, have you had a majority musculoskeletal type of influence on people’s lives or has it been autonomic as you started out yourself or is it has it been neo-cortical has it been psychological? Has it been a bunch of the whole thing? What would you say if you could chronicle your journey as a chiropractor, your service to humankind just the type of patient that you have seen throughout your life? Dr. Faye – Yes. Well, you know CMCC when I went to it was naturopathic as well as chiropractic college. So I had four hours every Thursday afternoon for four years in naturopathy. I was a mixer on graduating. I had a very broad– broad approach to what I would do for a patient not just do manipulation. However, the manipulation I discovered had to be way more specific than what I had been taught to get the neurological effects. If you can do– get a crack and you won’t see the patient flash or anything happen, and they’ll come back in the next time and they’ll say, well, not much happened. Well, when they go out the door from the manipulation that I was trying to achieve they always knew some thing happened because I got onto their nervous system. And thanks to Dean Homewood, chiropractic was all about affecting the nervous system and I didn’t even know it was for low back pain. I thought that’s what we were trying to do. And I made my studies trying to develop manipulations that could get a neuro-biological response. And so, that’s kind of what I did and that’s what got the first Canadian chiropractor to be six weeks with an Olympic team. I treated three tendinitis of the knee with lumbar manipulation and never touched their knees because I was trying to effect the sympathetic lumbar ganglion chain that I felt was facilitated because they’d been to all kinds of physios and done all kinds of treatment and hadn’t got better and they weren’t gonna go to Los Angeles and I adjusted their lumbar and in three weeks, the tendinitis was cleared up and all three of them and all three of them competed. So I directed my manipulation to try and reduce the sympathetic facilitation if that’s what was involved. Now some sprains, strains things they’re just their own thing and you just treat them as their own thing. But if it becomes chronic, like a chronic tendinitis then they’re, in my opinion has to be facilitated sympathetics. And then I read Boas, Bomb and Layvin, in their early 70s and they found out that Norepinephrine was being released by the sympathetic nerves that caused the mass cells to release PG 2 that drove chronic inflammation and they took rabbits and dogs and cut the sympathetic to the arthritic knees and the knees . and they were doing sympathectomies in the stomach to help clear up ulcers. So there was a lot of evidence and trick is. Dr. Xinsheng and Bradshaw are working on this trying to show that the sympathetics are facilitated by mechanical dysfunction of the spine and they’ve actually harvested that norepinephrine before a manipulation and after and now, they have to do it in a symptom population and see whether or not that’s really what we’re doing. But there is evidence that that’s probably what we’re doing and that’s kind of what I’ve been going on It’s probable evidence. You know, I often tell the story. There’s no study to prove that a hole in a bucket causes it not to hold water. There’s not one study. But we all know if there’s a hole in the bucket you can’t fill it with water. Sometimes you just have to ignore the RCT philosophy and you have to go with experience. Dr. Carrick- Now, when I started practicing chiropractic and that’s over four decades ago there was no evidence for anything. And when you started much longer than that. I mean, it’s almost been 60 years for you, right? Dr. Faye – It’s 60. Dr. Carrick- Yeah, there is no evidence. The only evidence was that if something was wrong with you and it could have been an uric it could have been cough, it could be a rheumatoid athropy it could be rheumatic fever that sometimes people go to the chiropractor and get better. So when I started, that was, there’s no evidence and as a consequence, a lot of the things that we did were based upon not really beliefs but on seeing things that happened and learning how to do it. So what do you think is happening with the profession now? We have a lot of evidence for minimal amount of things as with all of medicine. Where do we go? Do we just stay in the area where there’s evidence or we do the things that chiropractors have done before and see what happens in the treatment of a variety of other conditions? Research is very expensive and a lot of research models don’t fall into a– into a placebo controlled randomized clinical trial paradigm. You can’t get the placebo and then there might not be equipoise to put people in an individual control. Where do we go? What do you think is gonna happen? Dr. Faye – Well, first of all, we have to get rid of RCT philosophy and go to pragmatic studies. And if we set up a pragmatic study to see whether or not we help constipation or whatever it bends to who somebody to figure out how that happened. But first of all, we have to establish that it happens in a reasonable number of cases. And it doesn’t matter if we do a cervical or thoracic or give vitamins or do whatever, that’s what we do. So you can’t RCT, remove everything, take out under 18, take out asthmatics, take out diabetics, take out this, take out that. I have to see all those patients that have back pain. So as far as I’m concerned, a lot of RCTs are gorilla-in-the-cage research. If you did gorilla-in-the-cage research about behavior of a gorilla and then you tried to convince the world that that’s how gorillas behave in the jungle and nobody would listen to you. And they’d take cervical manipulation two times or one time and see if it cleared up migraine headaches migraines headaches for me as a six month job. I have to treat people regularly and slowly reduce the intervals between until I get to a month. And then if I can keep them migraine-free on a monthly visit for another six or eight months then I probably can say, I’ve done a really good job. But you know, they’re doing, they’re comparing what we don’t do and they’re trying to convince young chiropractors that we shouldn’t be doing it cervical manipulation for the patient’s headache. Okay, so now, they take a patient with a headache and they don’t tell you whether their ankle function is normal or their big toe moves properly when to their knees function, to their hips function cervical spine. Why is it we were doing these studies with isolating manipulation as the place where the pain is supposed to be coming from and we’re not looking at kinematic chain that the manipulation really should be dealing with that it is gonna cause a change in the cervical spine. I still can’t get that across to colleges. There is no teaching cervical manipulation for neck pain, low back manipulation for low back pain. Nobody’s looking at the kinematic chain which is the biomechanical truth. Dr. Carrick- Yeah, it’s marvelous and frustrating. With the studies that we have ongoing with manipulation and you know, we’ve got a small world in. We basically know who can sink a ball from the center line. We know who’s a good adjuster we know who’s not. What do you think about some of the studies of manipulation in chiropractic? Are we putting our best foot forward? Are we are we getting the Olympians in there doing the manipulations? Are we getting the superstars or are we getting people that maybe don’t have a great patient following? Who’s doing it? How valid is our research? and how can we make it more robust? In other words, if we’re gonna study manipulation, there are some people that are pretty good adjusters out there that probably haven’t been across the threshold of a college in a long period of time. What do you think about the quality of the therapy? Somebody’s been doing it for 10 years or working maybe in an individual clinic do they have the skills necessary to measure the things that they’re trying to measure? Dr. Faye – Well, that’s an interesting question. And Kim Ross showed that we can’t specifically adjust anything that when we hear one crack we were probably gapping three or four joints. That’s simultaneous. so our ears hear one crack but there’s four. It’s more important the direction of the corrections and how many around the axis of rotation are corrected in that area that’s dysfunctional and that’s not being done. So in my opinion, a lot of the so-called research is amateurs. In my opinion, they’re very good at doing one direction getting one crack but are they clearing out function and getting the function back into the motion units? And we don’t know that. And then a lot of studies say, SMT and it doesn’t describe what the SMT is. And you know, there’s so many gaps in what is being called good research RCTs and there’s too many flaws in my opinion, because they’re not looking at the kinematic chain and you can’t isolate out L5, S1 for a low back pain or treacle lumbar junction or whatever it is you wanna be RCTing because the very fact, an RCT has to remove all the variables destroys it right away for us. And, Rand has come to the conclusion that it has to be a pragmatic study and then work backwards. Dr. Carrick- Yeah, it’s exciting. I tell you, Len I can speak to you for hours and I think we should schedule some talks. We also want to talk about the videos that you have the manipulation videos, the adjustment videos, training videos, things that are basically free. I mean, the cost is negligible. Good service for people and how people can get those things from you. Dr. Faye – Well it at www.chiropracticmentor.com and they join for $7.95 a month and they can watch three hours of video. I’ll send them an email that gives them a 56-page printout of all the palpitations and manipulations they can highlight what they don’t know and they can start learning it. It will take months and months but at the end of a certain length of time instead of doing the same thing over and over again they will be becoming Masters of Manipulation and Palpation. They’ll be dealing with the Kinematic chain Still they’re gonna have a lot more visits because they’ll be spending months on the ankle or foot, the hip, the Index and they’ll be doing lots and lots of treatments so their busyness will go up. And they’ll be way more happy with what they’re doing because they’ll see these developments occurring and then when they get to dealing with the spine they’ll see that it won’t come back the same way three days later because it will start to change and then, they’ll get the concept they’re changing tissue responses which is the SAID response and tissues become more elastic. They don’t try and take up calcium they try and become elastic. The connections with the brain, the recruitment order of muscles. And now we’re finding out that there’s actually cortical changes and the neuroplasticity changes that chronic pain have created actually reversed in six to eight months. And so it’s super exciting so it’s a greatest time to be a chiropractor. if only they would learn to do them and if they learn effectively in the kinematic chain. Dr. Carrick- I think it’s great. But I think you really have to enforce it because you’re– you’re making money hand over front with that seven bucks I mean, I think people when they listen they go like, really? like what am I gonna get for the seven bucks? And they’re giving a whole load. And it’s pretty obvious why you’re doing it. I mean, the seven bucks it’s– Dr. Faye – Maybe one, I’ve been in practice 60 years. I just want them to know how to do it. Dr. Carrick- It’s a wonderful gift. It’s a wonderful wonderful gift, it’s inspirational. Well, you know we just haven’t even cracked the surface of the things that you and I should be talking about. So what I’d like to do is just set up more of a regular time that we can talk and go over some issues and I’d like to share with you some of the things that I’m doing and with my colleagues. Dr. Faye – What you’re doing is phenomenal. Dr. Carrick- Oh, well, thanks. Dr. Faye – It’s incredible. Dr. Carrick- Yeah, it’s pretty– Dr. Faye – We have to get to but you know, I can’t even get them off base one. Dr. Carrick- Oh, man I tell you it’s really great. But, Len you know, time goes by so very very quickly and you have been practicing for over half of the time of the profession. I’m almost there as well. And it’s a blink. And I agree with you, I think this is a wonderful time to be a chiropractor. We have been raised with doom and gloom and it’s a sad story when we look at all the beautiful things that are happening for chiropractors. I think that you’re concerned and I’m concerned of skill levels of changing of paradigms. And at the end of the day, manipulation is a pretty incredible, understood gift that can be learned and you’ve certainly done it with a demonstration and sacrifice. People can learn how to do this. and I’d like to explore that more and I think that we have a lot to talk about. So let’s schedule some more of these and I just love it. I mean, I can sit and talk to you forever in a day. Dr. Faye – Fred, I really appreciate that you’ve gone to the trouble to set up this interview and help people understand what it is we’re about and maybe the paradigm was shifting. You know at one stage that we were– MPI was giving 300 seminars a year and we were shifting it like crazy and then greed took over and I had to– and changes going on that should be going on we’re again. Dr. Carrick- Yeah, and you know you hit it with greed and opportunity and betrayal and all of these things that’s a part of the history and I think we’d like to talk about that and get a good picture so people can understand perseverance that you can keep on going in spite of all of the nonsense and the good people the bad people. Good people are still around. Bad people actually filtered down, you know. Take good care. I look forward to seeing you again in person which is always the best. But I want to do more of these and I want to chronicle a lot of things and we have so many people. We’ve got 16000 alumni in Carrick Institute and we have our license from the Florida Department of Education to give a master’s degree and we’re going through regional and national accreditation on that and different research our clinical– Dr. Faye – It’s fantastic what you’ve done. It’s fantastic what you’ve done. We really appreciate you. Dr. Carrick- That’s kind. Okay, dear friend. Well, until next time, you take good care and we’ll be seeing you soon. Dr. Faye – Right, and with a new computer. Dr. Carrick- Yes, we are. See you then, bye-bye. Dr. Faye – Bye.